tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post2637615691963273203..comments2023-11-02T04:18:20.969-05:00Comments on PAGANS AND LUTHERANS: ILLUMINATE ME, JESUSBruce Geehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18140478955080857310noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-31061324239103601312007-11-20T11:38:00.000-06:002007-11-20T11:38:00.000-06:00Bruce: Well, my point was never that "numbers = su...Bruce: Well, my point was never that "numbers = success", (although my dad used to say "Of course numbers are important, there's a whole book of the Bible named after them! ;-) ) and more just to clarify that the reported huge decline in attendance at OCC was not as a result of these "edgy"/"hip" services, which are a fairly new thing that have actually had the opposite effect.<BR/><BR/>There's no doubt that a lot of churches have abandoned doctrine in favor of people-pleasing though, and have seen big "results" in terms of numbers. Joel Osteen comes to mind, but even Robert Schueller's similar self-esteem-driven church did that sort of thing.<BR/><BR/>As for where they all went? I don't think there is one answer for that. Given the nature of the aforementioned scandal, I'm sure there were people who got so disillusioned with church that they never set foot in another one. Others, I'm sure, simply migrated to other churches in the area.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-47132107553434636632007-11-20T09:08:00.000-06:002007-11-20T09:08:00.000-06:00They should just do what all failed/defeated initi...They should just do what all failed/defeated initiatives do:<BR/><BR/>Put the word "neo-" at the beginning of the old name and try the same failed thinking again with no new insight or variation.<BR/><BR/>...what is that old definition of insanity again?Mike Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09202275259518132834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-69546462023238246252007-11-19T21:50:00.000-06:002007-11-19T21:50:00.000-06:00The "mega-church" movement (i.e. Willow Creek) had...The "mega-church" movement (i.e. Willow Creek) had an interesting development this year. <BR/><BR/>Their own research has confirmed that what they are doing, for the most part, does not work. The assumptions they had been making (and marketing to thousands of other churches) were wrong.<BR/><BR/>Here is the video: http://revealnow.com/story.asp?storyid=49Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-53143571367990487602007-11-19T17:19:00.000-06:002007-11-19T17:19:00.000-06:00Anonymous: "Whatever they're doing is working" , e...Anonymous: "Whatever they're doing is working" , eh? It is clear to me that in order to "work", a church has to practically stand on its head to attract people. The question that goes begging is: when does the marketing tail start wagging the scriptural dog? <BR/> I think there is probably some sort of inverse relationship between the degree of people-pleasing and the purity of doctrine in a church. That is how it appears to me. But I could be wrong.<BR/><BR/>So a church is "working" when more people attend? What if the church is teaching heresy? Attendance, it seems to me, is a shaky grounds for evaluating a church.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, since you seem to know: where did all those former members go? To other megachurches? Are they worshipping St. Mattress on Sunday mornings? Or are they becoming Catholics?Bruce Geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18140478955080857310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-16199470418731506582007-11-19T17:05:00.000-06:002007-11-19T17:05:00.000-06:00Ah, I blame lack of coffee. ;)Regardless, attendan...Ah, I blame lack of coffee. ;)<BR/><BR/>Regardless, attendance at OCC overall has gone up significantly since Illuminate started, so whatever they're doing is working. It began as an experimental alternative service with 30 people two years ago and now gets about 2,500 a week. They're not back up to the heights of ten years ago (that necessitated a 5000+ seat main auditorium) yet, but they're getting there, and personally I think they're doing it right.<BR/><BR/>*shrug*Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-55797046661170696862007-11-19T15:25:00.000-06:002007-11-19T15:25:00.000-06:00Clearly illuminate isn't there for the young hipst...Clearly illuminate isn't there for the young hipsters, that's what, as Bruce said, the new "J-THANG" is all about.scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03598940141639305680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-1433835636627813722007-11-19T15:17:00.000-06:002007-11-19T15:17:00.000-06:00A couple of answers and comments:Attendance came d...A couple of answers and comments:<BR/><BR/>Attendance came down at Overlake (from where it was a decade ago at least -- it has been going up again the last couple of years -- and I have no idea if "by half" is accurate) almost <I>exclusively</I> due to a rather public scandal back then, when the 30-year church founder was accused of some past inappropriate sexual advances. A lot of people left at that point, and his replacement, while wonderful at helping the church heal from such a massive wound, was not there to bring in more people -- and he didn't.<BR/><BR/>Also, I should point out that Neuhaus' quote describing the different services is from a historically antagonistic local press, that misses the mark <I>every</I> time they try to report on what happens at Overlake. Illuminate isn't there to be "edgy" or "hip" nor to just appeal to youngsters -- although I think it does those things -- those are really just buzzwords the press uses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-46033607862598586732007-11-19T14:50:00.000-06:002007-11-19T14:50:00.000-06:00Ooh, that's clever. Variations: IprayiWorshipiCel...Ooh, that's clever. Variations: <BR/><BR/>Ipray<BR/>iWorship<BR/>iCelebrate...Bruce Geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18140478955080857310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7206866042338169907.post-5239235747379448382007-11-19T13:38:00.000-06:002007-11-19T13:38:00.000-06:00iPray. Hmm, if this was a southern baptist church...iPray. <BR/><BR/>Hmm, if this was a southern baptist church, should that be iSing instead?<BR/>:-) :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com